Greetings from Germany - some facts about current situation Germany / Italy

[ErikH]

First im sorry for using english, but i speak no italian. My name is Erik and im from Weimar / Germany.

In last days alot of reports were published about anti german rants in Italian media and i find that very bad. Maybe i can show you the german side in all of this.

This virus hit all of Europe but the different nations cope different with it. In Germany we have over 40.000 intensive care units and one of the strongest healthcare systems in the world. The virus has teh lowest mortality in the entire world in Germany. Its below 1%.

In Germany we understand very well, that Italy is hard hit. Same counts for Spain and some regions of France.

In the last days several italian patients were flown to Germany for treatment here. Something that is not easy to do, because people are naturally disturbed by the situation. Its hard to explain to the common people why infected people are flown in from a foreign country.

What we find here very bad is how Italians start to insult Germany, because we dont want "Corona bonds". That doesnt mean we dont want help Italy. What we dont want is that we make debt for Italy where we have no control over it. Something that is btw banned by the german constitution. Not a single cent of german tax money can be spend without consent of the german Bundestag (parliament). For same reason Eurobonds were banned from our highest court.

Beside that, Netherlands, Denmark and all eastern European countries are against it as well. Germany will never accept common debt.

In Germany pensioners go into retirement not before 67 years old and the pensions level is only 45%. Also according to the ECB, italians have almost 50% more private savings than Germans. How should the german government explain to a german pensioners who goes with 67 into retirement and gets a minimum pension...that it takes hundreds of billions debt to send to Italy where people retire years earlier and have higher savings?

Foreigners only see the German economic power but never see where it comes from. Yes we have low debt but gigantic surplus, gigantic gold reserves and can easily pay to german unemployed in the crisis enormous amounts of money. But only because we saved money in better times.

The german position is quite clear. We help. With medics, supplies and medical support. We will also help through EU institutions.

Insulting Germany and Germans wont help Italy. It will only change the view Germans have on Italy.

I hope i could show how people see it over here.

[Gasiot2]

Non sapevo che la Germania non potesse spendere nulla all'estero dei suoi proventi fiscali
L'Italia manda soldi per aiuti vari in tanti paesi nonostante il grande debito pubblico
Mi puoi spiegare meglio come si concilia questa vostra regola con la cosiddetta Europa unita

[Valerio]

You have over 40.000 intensive care units and one of the strongest healthcare systems in the world.

We lost ours, according European recommendations, to remain in your stupid parameters. For that we can't love neither Europe or Germany.



https://m.facebook.com/vlorealbania/vid ... /?vh=e&d=n

[ErikH]

Non sapevo che la Germania non potesse spendere nulla all'estero dei suoi proventi fiscali
L'Italia manda soldi per aiuti vari in tanti paesi nonostante il grande debito pubblico
Mi puoi spiegare meglio come si concilia questa vostra regola con la cosiddetta Europa unita

Sure, i hope google translate is right and i understood your question.

We can send help as well and do so.

What we can not and will not...is to make debt for Italy. That corona or euro bonds are made, we pay the interest rate and the italian government decides over it. We dont want shared debt and our constitution bans it.

Italy and other southern europe countries have not saved money in good times, are known to have very weak fiscal discipline. The german tax payer would have no control over the money, when the italians make bonds in our name.

[ErikH]

You have over 40.000 intensive care units and one of the strongest healthcare systems in the world.

We lost ours, according European recommendations, to remain in your stupid parameters. For that we can't love neither Europe or Germany.



https://m.facebook.com/vlorealbania/vid ... /?vh=e&d=n

I believe its an italian problem to always blame others for own mistakes. Not even Greece has such a weak healthcare system as Italy and no EU recommendation exist, that orders to cut down hospitals like Italy did.

A good example is the Laquila earthquake. It was a weak one but caused extreme destruction and over 300 death. Nowhere else in Europe would have such a weak earthquake cause so much destruction. Why did it cause such destruction? Because corruption undermined safety.

Same can be seen at the Corona crisis. Hospitals are worn down at extreme levels. Most funds were disappearing in dark channels and the result can be seen now. Extreme high mortality like in a 3rd world country and worse circumstances than in Iran.

Why not adress the obvious but blame EU / Germany for that?

[nerorosso]

You have over 40.000 intensive care units and one of the strongest healthcare systems in the world.

We lost ours, according European recommendations, to remain in your stupid parameters. For that we can't love neither Europe or Germany.



https://m.facebook.com/vlorealbania/vid ... /?vh=e&d=n

I believe its an italian problem to always blame others for own mistakes. Not even Greece has such a weak healthcare system as Italy and no EU recommendation exist, that orders to cut down hospitals like Italy did.

A good example is the Laquila earthquake. It was a weak one but caused extreme destruction and over 300 death. Nowhere else in Europe would have such a weak earthquake cause so much destruction. Why did it cause such destruction? Because corruption undermined safety.

Same can be seen at the Corona crisis. Hospitals are worn down at extreme levels. Most funds were disappearing in dark channels and the result can be seen now. Extreme high mortality like in a 3rd world country and worse circumstances than in Iran.

Why not adress the obvious but blame EU / Germany for that?

No caro Erik, la maggior parte dei fondi destinati alla Sanità in Italia non se ne è andata in oscuri meandri. La Sanità patisce adesso 20 anni di tagli in nome dei virtuosi bilanci tanto cari alla tua Germania, in nome del "ce lo chiede l'europa (volutamente minuscolo)" tanto caro al prof. Monti.
La sanità italiana era, pur con alcuni problemi tipici della pubblica amministrazione, effettivamente la migliore del mondo quanto all'universalità dell'assistenza, tanto è vero che la Cuba post-rivoluzione, dovendo creare ex novo un sistema sanitario universale, proprio a quello italiano si ispirò. Inoltre herr Erik, mi pare che i tassi di interesse non siano decisi dall'Italia, ma dai famigerati "mercati" o meglio dalla speculazione. Del resto trovo assolutamente assurdo che uno Stato debba chiedere soldi a prestito come una volgare Società per Azioni. Lo Stato deve essere in grado di coniare moneta quando serve ai suoi interessi, anche al prezzo di una certa inflazione, concetto di cui voi Tedeschi avete sommo terrore, memori della "Repubblica di Weimar" città nella quale tu vivi.
Inoltre ti preciso che anche in Italia si va in pensione a 67 anni, e più o meno alle stesse condizioni infami a cui la Germania costringe i suoi pensionati, quindi su questo non puoi avere nulla da dire.

La verità è che la UE è stata costruita secondo le esigenze della Germania, e l'Euro infatti segue proprio quelle che erano le linee guida del "Deutsch Mark". Infatti il mostruoso surplus commerciale attuale della Germania è proprio favorito dalla moneta comune.

In estrema sintesi per l'Italia (grazie sig. Prodi) l'Euro è stato una trappola mortale.

PS
Le intenzioni dello Germania, intesa come sistema oligarchico capitalistico, senza nessuna allusione al suo popolo, che come tutti i popoli ha pregi e difetti, e in subordine della Francia, sono quelle di ridurre l'Italia come la povera Grecia, che siete riusciti a immiserire e depredare.

[Valerio]

You have over 40.000 intensive care units and one of the strongest healthcare systems in the world.

We lost ours, according European recommendations, to remain in your stupid parameters. For that we can't love neither Europe or Germany.



https://m.facebook.com/vlorealbania/vid ... /?vh=e&d=n

I believe its an italian problem to always blame others for own mistakes. Not even Greece has such a weak healthcare system as Italy and no EU recommendation exist, that orders to cut down hospitals like Italy did.

A good example is the Laquila earthquake. It was a weak one but caused extreme destruction and over 300 death. Nowhere else in Europe would have such a weak earthquake cause so much destruction. Why did it cause such destruction? Because corruption undermined safety.

Same can be seen at the Corona crisis. Hospitals are worn down at extreme levels. Most funds were disappearing in dark channels and the result can be seen now. Extreme high mortality like in a 3rd world country and worse circumstances than in Iran.

Why not adress the obvious but blame EU / Germany for that?

You should read other newspapers than yours, so able to mistify all Italian affairs. Our only & great mistake was to trust this deceitful EU, based on the project of destroying the second European industrial power and acquire its enormous heritage.

[nerorosso]

You have over 40.000 intensive care units and one of the strongest healthcare systems in the world.

We lost ours, according European recommendations, to remain in your stupid parameters. For that we can't love neither Europe or Germany.



https://m.facebook.com/vlorealbania/vid ... /?vh=e&d=n

I believe its an italian problem to always blame others for own mistakes. Not even Greece has such a weak healthcare system as Italy and no EU recommendation exist, that orders to cut down hospitals like Italy did.

A good example is the Laquila earthquake. It was a weak one but caused extreme destruction and over 300 death. Nowhere else in Europe would have such a weak earthquake cause so much destruction. Why did it cause such destruction? Because corruption undermined safety.

Same can be seen at the Corona crisis. Hospitals are worn down at extreme levels. Most funds were disappearing in dark channels and the result can be seen now. Extreme high mortality like in a 3rd world country and worse circumstances than in Iran.

Why not adress the obvious but blame EU / Germany for that?

A proposito Erik, dovresti leggere questo, che è pubblicato da "Il Manifesto" giornale italiano, ma è un appello pubblicato e firmato da numerosi intellettuali tedeschi, tra cui il filosofo Jurgen Habermas.

https://ilmanifesto.it/leuropa-vive-o-muore/

Qui si dimostra cosa è l'Europa.
Banda di usurai del nord o federazione di Nazioni Sorelle?

[ErikH]

We cant be sister nations when one nation follows strict austerity and let people work until 67 years old while the other spends money like there is no tomorrow. If Germany had a monetary politics like Italy, it would be bancrupt too. So what will Italy do then? Rise pensioner age to 67 as well and take 50% of the italians savings?

Germany will help Italy with medical help. We will send doctors and staff to help your healthcare system. We will send pharmaceutic supplies and breathing machines.

We will support italian economy through the ECB and the ESM fond, which was made for situations like that. What we wont do is to make common debt. Euro bonds or Corona bonds are against German interests, hurt the german tax payer and are banned by the german constitution. The highest german court ruled, that common european debt is banned by the german constitution and illegal by german law.

Another aspect that is important here is, that Italy tried to insult and belittle Germany to get that money.

Greece tried the same and failed. Beside that, there are nations in the EU much poorer than Italy who do much better and with less corruption. The baltics and poland for example. Explain a polish tax payer why he should pay money to Italy, while earning only 30% of an italian?

I think Italy and Italians should understand that this will lead to nothing. Germany will block any attempt for shared debt in the EU.

Try to see it from our side. If you are a german worker...would you want italian politicians decide about your hard earned money? Italians dont even trust their own goverment but now want Germans to trust them? Come on.

On a sidenote, German pharma giant Bayer found out that a certain medication they produce works against COVID-19. Germany secured large amounts of this for us...and also for Italy. Thats help.

And while italians insult as as Nazis because we dont want give them free money, we evacuate italians to save their life

[Valerio]

So you are true benefactors! And what's about founds to help German banks? Or about managing of surplus?

No violations? I suppose it's a case of two weights and two measures.


I am convinced that Europe is not and never will be an only nation. Then I think that the experiment failed.

So long, Europe! China aids are more relevant.

[Carlo]

Honestly speaking, I think that really the major of the problems are inside our country. I think it becomes the national sport to find someone external to blame for unsuccess. The first thing that my parents teach to me is to ask first to myself if I did everything right and all I can to to get the point.
And from my point of view italian politicians in the last 30 years were and are not able to see over its own nose. We had, maybe few, good politicians, but no one of them as statesman. Everybody were looking at short-range objectives (i.e. ri-election), and the situation we have now is exactly the result of such a weak politics.

Saying that, we are not so bad, and I still think that our social health is one of the best in the world. Perhaps weaker in the south of Italy, yeah. Try to get health assistance in the USA... to born a son it cost more than $20000. Italy contributes in EU science with a lot of money, but in terms of financial return is well below the minimum, and countries like UK (just to mention one) received back more than what they contributed. A lot more. This is unfair, especially whenever competition is against non-EU countries, and because the italian science, comparing the ratio between financed projects/quality of publications is high. In Germany the mean amout to do research is at least 20 times what we get inItaly. There are a lot of italian scientist all around the world that were forced to emigrate because lack of money for research. Again, I think part of the roblem are ourselve, but not all is from inside.

Finally, there are no reasons now to don't put enough money in the so-called coronabond or whatever you want to name it. We are in real emergency and the main point is that NOW EU is forced to consider where and HOW to go: stay together, which means help each other, or separate?

I'm pretty sure that big superpowers like USA, China and Russia prefer a weak Europe (whenever a single State will buy supplies is weaker than the whole Europe) rather than a strong, united Europe. For many reasons, commercial first. Until we will not overcome this we will not advance further in EU. This is the moment to make a strong decision: keep and stay together or not?

I am convinced that a strong Europe is necessary, a strong Europe able to do its owninterests and talk openly with USA, China and Russia.

[Valerio]

But Europe is not a nation, and now is too late.

Future will not be the same, world will not be the same, why should we maintain old friendships? We need a new project, not redo old mistakes.

[Carlo]

It is not late. All it depends IF there is the real wish to build a European project or not.

[Valerio]

We've been waiting for years for an old fairy tale. Our patience is over and our Italy is now destroyed.

[ErikH]

We've been waiting for years for an old fairy tale. Our patience is over and our Italy is now destroyed.

Patience in Germany too is over. For decades we demanded that southern europeans act more responsible, fight corruption and establish stable monetry politics.

That said, Austria joined Germany and said there wont be Corona Bonds.

That some Itlians call China a "friend" is ridicolous. China made this Virus with their disgusting animal markets.

China sells faulty test kits and non functional masks. Meanwhile COVID-19 still ravages China but China doesnt report about it.

China acts like a locust and a Italy that depends on China becomes a chinese colony exploited and thrown away.

When i read your posts i think you are unable to understand the other side.

Germany has zero trust in the italian political system. And i know most italians have no trust in their own political system.

Germany will help and does help alot. Much more than China does. But we will never agree to "Corona Bonds". That is against evrything Germany stands for. And as i said, its impossible since our constition bans it.